AdmiralHuang
Spaceman
How did Hawk know about Casey's father being killed in that gruesome manner? It was bugging me this morning before class... I know I know the answer but I can't seem to dig it out of my head.
How did Hawk know about Casey's father?
- Thread starter AdmiralHuang
- Start date
Sphynx
Commodore
Hawk said that he and Blair went out on a search and rescue for the Iceman's pod after he had ejected. They found the pod and the carnage inside, but decided to nix that from the report.
Maybe some of you hard-core continuity guys can help me out. Did that event occurr while they were still flying off of the Tiger's Claw? One thing I couldn't figure out is a little continuity glitch. In WC IV, Blair had heard Hawk's name, but didn't seem to have met him before. In Prophecy, it sounds like Hawk was under the command of the Iceman. Was that supposed to be on the Claw, or some other ship? I guess WC II listed the only survivors from the Claw at that time as Angel, Spirit, Paladin, Maniac, Blair, Jazz and Doomsday (although they were only on the Claw for a little while)... am I forgetting anyone?
Well, even if it is a continuity glitch, I'm not going to get my shorts in a knot about it. I'll still enjoy the games either way. I was just wondering if there was an official explanation.
Sphynx
Maybe some of you hard-core continuity guys can help me out. Did that event occurr while they were still flying off of the Tiger's Claw? One thing I couldn't figure out is a little continuity glitch. In WC IV, Blair had heard Hawk's name, but didn't seem to have met him before. In Prophecy, it sounds like Hawk was under the command of the Iceman. Was that supposed to be on the Claw, or some other ship? I guess WC II listed the only survivors from the Claw at that time as Angel, Spirit, Paladin, Maniac, Blair, Jazz and Doomsday (although they were only on the Claw for a little while)... am I forgetting anyone?
Well, even if it is a continuity glitch, I'm not going to get my shorts in a knot about it. I'll still enjoy the games either way. I was just wondering if there was an official explanation.
Sphynx
Capn Johnny
Cap'n Johnny
There is always an official explanation...
Usually, it comes from Loaf.
-J
Usually, it comes from Loaf.
-J
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I'm not sure about the Iceman thing, you might want to try searching the forums, the answer is probably somewhere in here....
I think there were a few more survivors from the Claw but some of their names elude me right now. You forgot about Hunter (although I don't know if he was still stationed on the claw at that point), there is also the guy Hunter meets in FA on the shuttle to Tolwyn's island estate, the guy who was stranded on some kat planet until a confed patrol found him. I think there are a few others but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.
I think there were a few more survivors from the Claw but some of their names elude me right now. You forgot about Hunter (although I don't know if he was still stationed on the claw at that point), there is also the guy Hunter meets in FA on the shuttle to Tolwyn's island estate, the guy who was stranded on some kat planet until a confed patrol found him. I think there are a few others but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.
I wondered about the same thing once. I also remember that whole conversation in WCIV where Blair is introduced to Panther and Hawk. And then Blair's like, "I recognize those names. It's Panther and Hawk."
And then how Hawk tells Casey about how way back in the day he and Blair found Iceman's body and how they left out the minor detail about him being cut into pieces to spare the family.
I merely excused the whole thing though. Just like I pretended I didn't know Rachel was in Prophecy. Lame.
And then how Hawk tells Casey about how way back in the day he and Blair found Iceman's body and how they left out the minor detail about him being cut into pieces to spare the family.
I merely excused the whole thing though. Just like I pretended I didn't know Rachel was in Prophecy. Lame.
Sphynx said:
The answer does come from LOAF, just via me (I'm sure he will mop up what I get wrong or leave out)
. This conversation spills over from how Hawk knew Seether. Hawk was on the Tiger's Claw as a crewman tech in some regard (can't quote you the source off the top of my head) and saw Iceman's lifepod that Blair brought in alone (he seemed to like to go out alone alot early in his career ).Hawk: But, one small detail was omitted from that report. Blair found his life-pod. Brought it in. Iceman was inside – in pieces. The Cats pulled him in, had their fun, and sent him home. Not exactly a hero’s death, huh? So, we omitted it from the mission log to spare the family.
'We' doesn't nessessarily have to be just Blair and Hawk, but all the other personnel that were also assisting. Also, everyone along the line who had to process a dead pilot (coroner/medical) had to have a hand in leaving the details out of reports. So did they meet? Probably, but Hawk was only a tech among many on the scene at the time (and didn't have a nifty moniker to be remembered by
). Hawk later goes into officer training and flight school where he 'meets' Seether. WC4 could be the first 'face to face' meeting Blair and Hawk ever have.
C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Despite everything, I do like the fact that they added Hawk to the Tiger's Claw era.
Hawk's actual claim is somewhat vauge as to his own involvement:
It's not clear whether "we" means that Hawk was there when the pod was brought in (by Blair) or not. Hawk may simply know what 'really' happened because he was a close friend of Iceman's (see below).
It can't have occured during the Tiger's Claw years: according to the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide, Iceman survived the destruction of the 'Claw. That's why I tend to doubt Hawk's actual involvement with recovering Iceman's body: it would have been done by Blair *after* his posting to Caernarvon.
This fits with the facts regarding Lance's conception in the Wing Commander Prophecy Official Strategy Guide. Iceman took a vacation shortly after Operation Crusade (ended 2655.293) and met (and knocked up) Lance's mother. He marries her three months later (2656.018 or later) and is killed six weeks after that (2656.060 or later) -- which would be several days after the loss of the Tiger's Claw (2656.056). Casey would then be born on or after 2656.198 - but this is all the extreme earliest possible dates... figuring forwards from the assumption that Iceman took off the day SM2 ended and knocked up Kylie Richards the same day. In reality, everything could be weeks or months later - the point is simply that it can't happen *before* the Tiger's Claw is destroyed.
As for Hawk's relation to Iceman, this is where things get a bit confusing. According to the aforementioned guide, Hawk originally enlisted as a communications tech, in which capacity he served onboard the Tiger's Claw. Iceman identified him as an officer candidate, and reccomended him for OCS. The two stayed in touch through Hawk's time at the Academy and flight school. Iceman was posted to the Tiger's Claw in 2645 - so this could have happened at any point between 2645 and 2655. Except! that Wing Commander IV tells us that Hawk attended flight school with Seether, which has to be between 2653 and 2655.
Okay, so then what's the problem? He was a comm tech, he went to OCS, he knew Seether and he went on to be a pilot. Makes perfect linear sense so far... except for Hawk's anectdote about flying with Iceman from Prophecy:
So, given all the variables, what does this mean? Hawk must have served with Iceman *after* 2655 - either as a pilot on the Tiger's Claw during its final days or as a pilot on the Austin. Since there's the vauge "Blair factor" (Blair probably would have known him), it seems more likely that Hawk's first posting out of Flight School was onboard the Austin... and that's where Iceman taught him an important lesson about death.
Whew!
Another good topic.
Angel, Spirit, Paladin, Maniac and Blair (plus Jazz and Doomsday) are the only ones specified in Wing Commander II, in the context of Jazz's crazy revenge scheme. Since the Tiger's Claw had a crew of hundreds and was in service for twelve years, presumably there are lots of other characters who served there and were transferred off before K'Tithrak Mang. Some others:
Hunter - the novels retconned the idea that Hunter survived because he was on a furlough during the attack on K'Tithrak Mang. He shows up in Freedom Flight and Fleet Action (where he dies, 2668).
Geoffrey Tolwyn - Tolwyn commanded the Tiger's Claw at several points during its career - and he survived the war (to kill himself in 2673).
Vanderman - Generic Tiger's Claw pilot who shows up in Fleet Action. Hunter comments that everyone thought he was dead, and he says he ejected and survived on a Kilrathi-held planet.
Sparks - Sparks served on the 'Claw as part of the team investigating the Ras Nik'hra technologies in SM2. Went back to the Austin like Jazz and Doomsday.
Shotglass - Voices of War *suggests* that Shotglass survived, noting that he gave the Armada character a pair of wings "after K'Tithrak Mang".
Iceman - See above.
Hawk - See above.
Hawk's actual claim is somewhat vauge as to his own involvement:
It's not clear whether "we" means that Hawk was there when the pod was brought in (by Blair) or not. Hawk may simply know what 'really' happened because he was a close friend of Iceman's (see below).
It can't have occured during the Tiger's Claw years: according to the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide, Iceman survived the destruction of the 'Claw. That's why I tend to doubt Hawk's actual involvement with recovering Iceman's body: it would have been done by Blair *after* his posting to Caernarvon.
This fits with the facts regarding Lance's conception in the Wing Commander Prophecy Official Strategy Guide. Iceman took a vacation shortly after Operation Crusade (ended 2655.293) and met (and knocked up) Lance's mother. He marries her three months later (2656.018 or later) and is killed six weeks after that (2656.060 or later) -- which would be several days after the loss of the Tiger's Claw (2656.056). Casey would then be born on or after 2656.198 - but this is all the extreme earliest possible dates... figuring forwards from the assumption that Iceman took off the day SM2 ended and knocked up Kylie Richards the same day. In reality, everything could be weeks or months later - the point is simply that it can't happen *before* the Tiger's Claw is destroyed.
As for Hawk's relation to Iceman, this is where things get a bit confusing. According to the aforementioned guide, Hawk originally enlisted as a communications tech, in which capacity he served onboard the Tiger's Claw. Iceman identified him as an officer candidate, and reccomended him for OCS. The two stayed in touch through Hawk's time at the Academy and flight school. Iceman was posted to the Tiger's Claw in 2645 - so this could have happened at any point between 2645 and 2655. Except! that Wing Commander IV tells us that Hawk attended flight school with Seether, which has to be between 2653 and 2655.
Okay, so then what's the problem? He was a comm tech, he went to OCS, he knew Seether and he went on to be a pilot. Makes perfect linear sense so far... except for Hawk's anectdote about flying with Iceman from Prophecy:
So, given all the variables, what does this mean? Hawk must have served with Iceman *after* 2655 - either as a pilot on the Tiger's Claw during its final days or as a pilot on the Austin. Since there's the vauge "Blair factor" (Blair probably would have known him), it seems more likely that Hawk's first posting out of Flight School was onboard the Austin... and that's where Iceman taught him an important lesson about death.
Whew!
Another good topic.
Angel, Spirit, Paladin, Maniac and Blair (plus Jazz and Doomsday) are the only ones specified in Wing Commander II, in the context of Jazz's crazy revenge scheme. Since the Tiger's Claw had a crew of hundreds and was in service for twelve years, presumably there are lots of other characters who served there and were transferred off before K'Tithrak Mang. Some others:
Hunter - the novels retconned the idea that Hunter survived because he was on a furlough during the attack on K'Tithrak Mang. He shows up in Freedom Flight and Fleet Action (where he dies, 2668).
Geoffrey Tolwyn - Tolwyn commanded the Tiger's Claw at several points during its career - and he survived the war (to kill himself in 2673).
Vanderman - Generic Tiger's Claw pilot who shows up in Fleet Action. Hunter comments that everyone thought he was dead, and he says he ejected and survived on a Kilrathi-held planet.
Sparks - Sparks served on the 'Claw as part of the team investigating the Ras Nik'hra technologies in SM2. Went back to the Austin like Jazz and Doomsday.
Shotglass - Voices of War *suggests* that Shotglass survived, noting that he gave the Armada character a pair of wings "after K'Tithrak Mang".
Iceman - See above.
Hawk - See above.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
A bit more detail... according to the WCP guide, Hawk knew Iceman, because while serving as an NCO on the 'Claw, he was noticed by Iceman and got into OCS with his help. Afterwards, already as a pilot, Hawk was at least briefly back on the 'Claw (long enough for Iceman to save his butt, as mentioned in WCP). Afterwards, Hawk maintained correspondence with Iceman until the end.
From a continuity standpoint, there is indeed some confusion about the exact circumstances of Iceman's death. Blame the WC1/2 guide - it's because of a fuck-up in it. According to this guide, Iceman survives the Tiger's Claw - but because of a peculiar mistake, it's not clear whether he really survives or the author simply screwed up:
.
So, if we assume that Iceman did indeed survive (and note that we don't have to assume this - the WC1/2 guide happens to be an in-universe source, so it's possible to blame the Angel/Iceman thing on LaFong), then there's the problem of how Blair rescued him in the B'shriss system while being under house arrest or even on Caernarvon. IIRC, the most commonly accepted explanation is that in fact, the Kilrathi killed Casey in B'shriss, and then dumped the pod in Gwynedd for Blair to find. This explanation is both reasonable and silly. It's reasonable, because Thrakhath certainly did hate Blair enough to pull off such a complicated stunt just to get at him, and it's silly for the same reason - had Thrakhath known exactly where Blair is, I don't think he would have hesitated to strike at Caernarvon. It sounds like the kind of thing he might do to avenge his father and all that.
On the other hand, if we look at Casey's bio in the WCP guide, it looks as though the gap between Firekka and Iceman's death is small enough that it is possible that he in fact died before the Tiger's Claw was destroyed. Then, suddenly everything makes sense - the 'Claw was in B'shriss before K'tithrak Mang. Iceman died, Blair found him without the Kilrathi having to transport Iceman to Gwynedd. Hawk was no longer on the 'Claw at the time. When he says that "we omitted it from the mission log", he doesn't necessarily mean that he had something to do with the report - the "we" can just as easily be referring to the Navy in general. Iceman wasn't the only ejected pilot ever hacked up by the Kilrathi, so it probably was Navy policy to omit some information in all such incidents.
Edit: bah, beaten to it (and proven partially wrong even before I said anything
) by LOAF.
From a continuity standpoint, there is indeed some confusion about the exact circumstances of Iceman's death. Blame the WC1/2 guide - it's because of a fuck-up in it. According to this guide, Iceman survives the Tiger's Claw - but because of a peculiar mistake, it's not clear whether he really survives or the author simply screwed up:
...In short, Iceman survived, because what started off as Angel's speech somehow ended as Iceman's speechWC1/2 guide said:
.So, if we assume that Iceman did indeed survive (and note that we don't have to assume this - the WC1/2 guide happens to be an in-universe source, so it's possible to blame the Angel/Iceman thing on LaFong), then there's the problem of how Blair rescued him in the B'shriss system while being under house arrest or even on Caernarvon. IIRC, the most commonly accepted explanation is that in fact, the Kilrathi killed Casey in B'shriss, and then dumped the pod in Gwynedd for Blair to find. This explanation is both reasonable and silly. It's reasonable, because Thrakhath certainly did hate Blair enough to pull off such a complicated stunt just to get at him, and it's silly for the same reason - had Thrakhath known exactly where Blair is, I don't think he would have hesitated to strike at Caernarvon. It sounds like the kind of thing he might do to avenge his father and all that
.On the other hand, if we look at Casey's bio in the WCP guide, it looks as though the gap between Firekka and Iceman's death is small enough that it is possible that he in fact died before the Tiger's Claw was destroyed. Then, suddenly everything makes sense - the 'Claw was in B'shriss before K'tithrak Mang. Iceman died, Blair found him without the Kilrathi having to transport Iceman to Gwynedd. Hawk was no longer on the 'Claw at the time. When he says that "we omitted it from the mission log", he doesn't necessarily mean that he had something to do with the report - the "we" can just as easily be referring to the Navy in general. Iceman wasn't the only ejected pilot ever hacked up by the Kilrathi, so it probably was Navy policy to omit some information in all such incidents.
Edit: bah, beaten to it (and proven partially wrong even before I said anything
) by LOAF.
Sphynx
Commodore
Some very thorough answers there. Thank you. I guess all fiction is bound to have its quirks and loopholes. I think part of my problem is that I never read any of the books (although I think I would like to, from what I've heard... Hunter dies in one of them? That's a tough call to make as an author. I always liked Hunter). Luckily, a few glitches here and there don't ruin the story or the gameplay. Thanks for the responses.
Sphynx
Sphynx
AdmiralHuang
Spaceman
*is thoroughly confused now*
Yeah, I always assumed Hawk was on the Claw with Iceman and Blair. Not so sure now...
Yeah, I always assumed Hawk was on the Claw with Iceman and Blair. Not so sure now...
Maj.Striker
Swabbie
Banned
As a comment aside, the quote by Quarto:
The description fits Iceman since in the WC 1 guide they describe Iceman as whispering a great deal and he would be the highest ranking officer flying at the time.
Not exactly a point I would stake my life on but a small contributory comment. (Iceman was my favorite wingman of all times...looked like Gregory Peck...flew like God's gift to the cockpit). Now...I have a question because this suddenly spurred my memory to a distant memory. I thought somewhere in Wing Commander 1 it referred to Iceman losing his entire family in a Kilrathi attack. Anyone else remember this and if it is true how does this explain Lance?
Edit: I see the family reference was evidently to his first family and daughter...nothing much however is said about Lance's step sister Julia though after her release, did she become a pilot as well?
The description fits Iceman since in the WC 1 guide they describe Iceman as whispering a great deal and he would be the highest ranking officer flying at the time.
Not exactly a point I would stake my life on but a small contributory comment. (Iceman was my favorite wingman of all times...looked like Gregory Peck...flew like God's gift to the cockpit).
Now...I have a question because this suddenly spurred my memory to a distant memory. I thought somewhere in Wing Commander 1 it referred to Iceman losing his entire family in a Kilrathi attack. Anyone else remember this and if it is true how does this explain Lance?Edit: I see the family reference was evidently to his first family and daughter...nothing much however is said about Lance's step sister Julia though after her release, did she become a pilot as well?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Eh, even disregarding the WC1/2 Guide we still have the WCP Guide timeline I outlined below - there just isn't enough time between the end of SM2 and when Iceman supposedly dies to put it before the destruction of the Tiger's Claw.
That said, I have a hard time killing *any* pilots at K'Tithrak Mang - we're specifically told in the WC12/Guide that the reason Blair doesn't have a wingman is because *everyone* is in space. Doesn't make sense for Iceman to be stuck on the 'Claw when it's destroyed, under those circumstances.
That's also the sort of scheme that someone specifically killing off Tiger's Claw pilots for revenge might cook up...
Should anyone ever revisit the story behind Iceman's death, it'd be completely reasonable to involve Jazz to some degree...Just wait till you try to figure out Panther, Blair and the Tarawa...
Yes, I've learned quite a bit more about the Hawk-Iceman death situation today so please continue. I'm assuming he means Panther's passing comment (the reason shes getting the big shot in 'running' the op) she makes about working with Admiral Richards on the Tarawa in WC4N, but I don't get the Blair connection either.
Does the Prophecy Strategy guide have any more cool tidbits? I guess I need to invest in one.
C-ya
Does the Prophecy Strategy guide have any more cool tidbits? I guess I need to invest in one.
C-ya
TheRedDuke
Spaceman
I don't remember Sparks being in the SM2 game. Was she at all, or was she possibly mentioned in Freedom Flight? Been a long time since I read that one...Bandit LOAF said:
Sphynx
Commodore
Are we talking the same Sparks who was the slightly flirtatious tech onboard the Concordia, or is this a different sparks?
And yes, regarding Panther, please do tell. Also, I'm guessing the Tarawa is from the books. Does anyone have a link where I can find out more about it?
Thanks
Sphynx
And yes, regarding Panther, please do tell. Also, I'm guessing the Tarawa is from the books. Does anyone have a link where I can find out more about it?
Thanks
Sphynx
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The TPoF novel includes references that Panther, Wilford and (possibly) Blair served on the Tarawa:
Relevant quotes:
"The Admiral and I served together on the Tarawa, before it went to the Landreich." - Panther, talking about Admiral Wilford (p.230)
"I first heard of you after the raid on Kilrah when you and your pilots took out the shipyards there." - Sosa, talking to Blair (p.276)
The Blair one is questionable -- she may be (to the point of probably is) talking about the T-Bomb strike (though why she'd phrase it that way is beyond me)... but at the very least Wilford and Panther were around in either End Run or the start of Fleet Action.
Another reference in the novel makes clear that Blair *had* met Hawk in person before WCIV.
Yes, the Prophecy guide has some very elaborate character histories.
It was from Freedom Flight - Hunter first thinks he's his normal mechanic (who went to the Austin to study cat parts) and then hits on her.
Same Sparks. She was a tech on the Austin in the fifties.
Yup, the Tarawa is the 'main' ship from three of the novels (End Run, Fleet Action and False Colors). If you really want to know more, you can read the full text of End Run online here: http://www.geocities.com/wcchrisreid/endrun.html (Or just ask specific questions and I'm sure we can give you whatever details you want.)