Capital Ships - Weapon Placement

capi3101

Admiral
Howdy all,

This one's for WCRPG; I'll preface this thread by making that clear from the get-go.

Right now I'm just under thirty craft away from having the vehicle catalog done, which means I will finally be able to move on to capital ships. The big headache I can see with them is weapon placement. Where weapons are located, what their respective firing arcs are, issues of that nature - for every last capital ship in the entire WC continuity.

I'd like some help with this, particularly from the Standoff and Saga folks if I can get it but anybody's help would be appreciated. I just need to know where y'all placed each weapon on the hull of a given capship. Still haven't figured out a good method for determining the actual arc as yet; hasn't really been an issue up to this point.

I might need to clarify what I'm asking for; lemme see what the initial response is to this thread before trying to say anything else...
 
Well, you could look at the turret placement of the ships included in Saga if you just open their entries in the tech room.
Most of the ships have their turrets on the top or bottom and can turn in every direction. The elevation can't get negative though, and of course the ships' shape determines some blind spots. There are very few models that have turrets placed on the sides or in an angle other than 0, 180 or 90 degrees from the roll axis of their ship.
For confed ships like the Tallahassee cruiser you can also assume that the turrets placed in front of the bridge part cannot fire backwards, and the ones in the back cannot fire into the direction the ship is flying.
Exceptions are the missile turrets on the Caernaven frigate that are mounted on the side and can only fire into the direction the ship is moving and a ~45° angle elevation from the ship's side hull.
The Kamrani class corvette is a interesting one on the Kilrathi side, it has a medium turret that covers a complete hemisphere behind the ship's stern. The other four turrets are mounted on the top and bottom and cover the whole hemisphere above and below the ship.

For turrets like the ones on the sides of the Frakthi II cruiser you can assume that they can cover approximately the upper hemisphere of the ship minus 20-30 degrees elevation on the side facing the ship.

Also keep in mind that turret numbers and placement vary depending on what source you look at. Usually the official WC games use whatever fits ingame, while the turrets described in the manuals are vastly different. IIRC Saga normally used the turrets like they were in WC3 (ingame), changing some things here and there when a ship appeared completely out of balance, for example if there were huge blind spots or when the ships were just too weak to be of any use.
Ships before the WC3 era often seem to be firing in any direction they want, they don't care where their turrets are supposed to be located or whether their shape would block their own turrets from firing.

So it depends a bit how your rule system works I think. Using values in degrees looks not very handy for playing a RPG to me, especially if multiple turrets are involved. Maybe if you explain how the rules will roughly work we can find a fitting way to define firing arcs.
 
So it depends a bit how your rule system works I think. Using values in degrees looks not very handy for playing a RPG to me, especially if multiple turrets are involved. Maybe if you explain how the rules will roughly work we can find a fitting way to define firing arcs.

Fair enough.

I agree that a system that requires exact numbers of degrees doesn't really work for an RPG environment. Unfortunately, I have to be able to cater to just that type of system. See, the combat rules are designed to cater to as many types of role-players as possible, with the systemic rules selected by an adventure's GM (so folks who just want to make a single die roll to see if they survive combat can do that, those who want a Final Fantasy-style encounter can do that, those who really should be playing Battlefleet Gothic can do that, and so forth). The only other positive aspect of setting things up that way is that the simpler, more abstract systems are pretty easy to derive from the complex one (and I'm the one who's doing the work there; the GMs should just be able to plug in the rules and go).

The system is going to be 2D - the only thing the third dimension would add would be some kind of range modifier, adding a whole lot of complexity for not much benefit. 3D can be emulated in the really abstract systems well, but there's no good way to do it with any type of physical grid involved. So I'm completely discounting elevations, except in the case where they would give the weapon additional degrees of fire into a certain arc.

The way things stand, I do have a series of defined firing arcs that correlate to a number of degrees bearing, starting at zero degrees from the craft's bow and going around a circle clockwise until 360 degrees is reached (again at the ship's bow). Fairly standard way of doing things, naturally. By giving the name of a defined arc for a weapon, the system sets the number of degrees involved. For example, the guns on most of the fighters are set to fire into the "Foreward Narrow" arc (and yes, I know that's misspelled - something I intend to correct when it comes time to proofread). That arc correlates to bearings of 338°-22, basically a 45-degree arc (cone?) ahead of the craft. The defined arc of fire are in 45, 90, 180 and 300 degree increments (and the system does allow for combinations of other arc increments)

If you need further clarification, lemme know; most of this stuff is explained at http://wcrpg.wikia.com/wiki/6.2.3:_Vehicular_Systems_and_Equipment#Weapons .
The same general rules for Weapons Stations will apply to capital ships.


The Kamrani class corvette is a interesting one on the Kilrathi side, it has a medium turret that covers a complete hemisphere behind the ship's stern. The other four turrets are mounted on the top and bottom and cover the whole hemisphere above and below the ship.

So for example, I'd say the medium turret would fire into the Aft Hemisphere only, and the others would be 360-degree turrets.

Well, you could look at the turret placement of the ships included in Saga if you just open their entries in the tech room.

Oooh...that'd be helpful. I'll have to fire up Saga when I get home; that should put me a good way towards getting the WC3/4 ships out of the road.

Most of the ships have their turrets on the top or bottom and can turn in every direction. The elevation can't get negative though, and of course the ships' shape determines some blind spots. There are very few models that have turrets placed on the sides or in an angle other than 0, 180 or 90 degrees from the roll axis of their ship.

I was thinking that was the case for most ships. Makes sense to have as big of a field of fire as possible...

For turrets like the ones on the sides of the Frakthi II cruiser you can assume that they can cover approximately the upper hemisphere of the ship minus 20-30 degrees elevation on the side facing the ship.

Azimuth or elevation? Just trying to be be clear here...I'm discounting elevation.



Also keep in mind that turret numbers and placement vary depending on what source you look at. Usually the official WC games use whatever fits ingame, while the turrets described in the manuals are vastly different. IIRC Saga normally used the turrets like they were in WC3 (ingame), changing some things here and there when a ship appeared completely out of balance, for example if there were huge blind spots or when the ships were just too weak to be of any use.

Ships before the WC3 era often seem to be firing in any direction they want, they don't care where their turrets are supposed to be located or whether their shape would block their own turrets from firing.

Yeah...that one's worrying me, actually. I had planned to go off of what was printed in the manuals; largely that's what happened with the fighters (big exception there being when I had to make up sizes).

May have to rectify things on those old ships. Programming limitations, my backside......
 
I should probably also mention I'll need help with fighter bays. Mainly which ships have them and which ships don't. As far as capacity, I'll probably just wing it (pardon the pun).
 
The fighter complement for many ships is mentioned in the WCPedia. My browser crashed twice while I was writing a long answer. So here's the sort form for now.

Here's a small list:
Bengal: 104
Exeter: 18
Waterloo: 40 (this cruiser has to be big, that's a lot)
Wake: 45
Confederation: 120
Yorktown: 40 (??? that small?? I would have said 70)

Fralthi I: 20

I'll come back later and make some additional remarks.
 
Waterloo: 40 (this cruiser has to be big, that's a lot)
SC24 in WCRPG's parlance; the Bengal- and Yorktown-classes both fall into that same size category. Bigger than the Fralthi-I and Snakeir, I might add...
TCS Gettysburg was portrayed as a Waterloo-class cruiser in WC2, and in End Run she was counted amongst the Confed fleet's remaining carriers, so that might tell you something.
 
What about the Confederation class? Is it the same size category as the Bengal as well?

The Snakeir has to be at least as big as a Bengal, it is heavy armored and has a fighter complement of about 100 fighters. It would fit into one size class with the Bengal and Confederation, while the Yorktown is somewhere between the Fralthi I and those mentioned above.

As for the Gettysburg: The Gettysburg is Waterloo class, and the Waterloo class is almost a carrier (along the lines of the flight deck cruisers the russians have in real life. Those are really carriers but named cruisers.)
Not to be confused with the Gettysburg class which is a heavy cruiser but with only 16 fighters on board.
 
What about the Confederation class? Is it the same size category as the Bengal as well?

The Snakeir has to be at least as big as a Bengal, it is heavy armored and has a fighter complement of about 100 fighters. It would fit into one size class with the Bengal and Confederation, while the Yorktown is somewhere between the Fralthi I and those mentioned above.

As for the Gettysburg: The Gettysburg is Waterloo class, and the Waterloo class is almost a carrier (along the lines of the flight deck cruisers the russians have in real life. Those are really carriers but named cruisers.)
Not to be confused with the Gettysburg class which is a heavy cruiser but with only 16 fighters on board.

Confederation-class is SC26 (bigger than the Bengal), Snakeir-class is a high SC23 (smaller than the Bengal), and I've never heard of the Gettysburg-class outside of CIC to be honest - as far as I can tell the Gettysburg-class is nothing more than an Exeter-class with a flight deck slapped on (which I suppose is enough to warrant giving it a different class name).
 
I don't know where the Exeter picture in the WCPedia article about the Gettysburg comes from. EDIT: Ahh, I remember, it was SM2.
Judging by its description in Freedom Flight I think it should look different, WC1 just didn't have that many models included.

I like the version fans made up much better, it looks like a Bengal without the huge flight deck in the bow but with some huge turrets on it.
Deathsnake has it in his mod: http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5416/gettysburg1.jpg
EDIT:
Ok, it looks more than a long version of the Exeter. Standoff also used it like that. EDIT2:No wait, I'm not sure anymore about Standoff.... Might have to replay it.
 
Ok, it looks more than a long version of the Exeter. Standoff also used it like that. EDIT2:No wait, I'm not sure anymore about Standoff.... Might have to replay it.
No, we didn't have the Gettysburg class at all in Standoff. As I recall, Eder didn't want to model it - it offended his artistic sensibilities to design something to look just like something else :).
 
As far as weapons arcs goes, the really [i[big[/i] guns (like the Confederation's Phase Transit Cannon or the Sivar's Proton Accelerator on which it was based) are keel-mounted and should only be able to fire dead-ahead--the same probably applies to any other capship-to-capship non-turreted "main gun", such as those huge dual cannons that one sees mounted on the Bengal or Ralari.
 
Not to be confused with the Gettysburg class which is a heavy cruiser but with only 16 fighters on board.

Thats too less for this class. I double the fighters to 32 (4x8)

And no, this ship will be first in Enigma 2666. Before that ship was just a design of the old Modder Lynx. Starman01 give me the pre file 2010 and Kevin finish it for Last Line of Defence. Now I used it too in Enigma 2666 as the TCS Austin, TCS Housten.

The ship is bigger than the Claw, modern and much more powerfull. But for its size even with 32 the Bengal has over three times more fighters. Reason are the Energy needed for the Big Heavy Neutron Gun Battery or later Heavy Anti Mater Battery. This ship eat two Fralthi in the same time. The ship, that can destroy the Gettysburg in a Capshipbattle is the Hha'ifra. Or a little fleet of Fralthi, Fraltha and Ralatha.

I used the same size for the other ships from the Manual. So here are the Confed Fleet:
screen0243.jpg

Exeter 360, Gilga 312, Waterloo 503, Wake 500, Gettysburg 850, Bengal 700, Confederation 987m.

The Gettysburg is that big because in the tubes on the sides no fighter can launch. Even in this size no Bomber can start (Sabre, Crossbow or Broadsword) If it shold be I need no increase the size.
 
As for the Gettysburg: The Gettysburg is Waterloo class, and the Waterloo class is almost a carrier (along the lines of the flight deck cruisers the russians have in real life. Those are really carriers but named cruisers.)
Not to be confused with the Gettysburg class which is a heavy cruiser but with only 16 fighters on board.
Whoa, I didn't even notice this before. This bit of info needs to be clarified.
Here's what we know:
- The Waterloo class are cruisers with a small fighter compliment.
- Originally, the WC Bible explains, the idea was that the Waterloo hull could be reconfigured into the Jutland class carrier. Same hull, different finish (I wonder if an analogy could be drawn to various WWII era carriers that were built on top of cruiser hulls). It seems like the Gettysburg may have been supposed to be one of these - hence why subsequent WC novels always mention the Gettysburg as one of the carriers. Note, however, that the Gettysburg is never identiified in-game as a Jutland - and in fact it may be referred to as a Waterloo in one of the conversations.
- The Gettysburg class is known to exist, but completely unknown as a ship. We know it's a cruiser, and that the TCS Austin, used by Tolwyn as his flagship, is one of them. Finally, in one WC1 mission, we do indeed see an Exeter standing in for the TCS Austin, though it jumps away before we can get close enough to have a look. I don't think we know anything beyond that. The WCPedia lists its fighter compliment as 16 ships, but I cannot recall any source that states this.
 
The idea of the Gettysburg is from Lynx with the 16 fighters. He done the design around 2004. After I get the ship the launchbays on the side was too small for even a Ferret. Then I try out to start a Rapier (remember in the Book "Freedom Flight" Jazz help Hunter to defend the Austin) and play around with the size. So its now 150m larger then the original design. Rapier, Scimitar, Ferret, Epee and Hornet can now start. All other are too big to start. So its offensiv attack against other capships are theyr Heavy turrets. Or a Scimitar or Epee armed with torpedos.
 
Fired up Saga this morning to begin looking at weapon emplacements...is there any way to tilt the ships along the axis of rotation? I can't see their undersides in the tech viewer.
 
Just use the mouse to rotate it any way you want, but I'd suggest getting qvp and pof construction suite for your task. It may not have all the fancy ingame shaders, but it shows weapon placement and firearcs.
 
- Originally, the WC Bible explains, the idea was that the Waterloo hull could be reconfigured into the Jutland class carrier. Same hull, different finish (I wonder if an analogy could be drawn to various WWII era carriers that were built on top of cruiser hulls). It seems like the Gettysburg may have been supposed to be one of these - hence why subsequent WC novels always mention the Gettysburg as one of the carriers. Note, however, that the Gettysburg is never identiified in-game as a Jutland - and in fact it may be referred to as a Waterloo in one of the conversations.

The bible comes after Special Operations 1 and it is certainly the source of Forstchen's confusion about Bondarevsky's Gettysburg. It was a reaction to something angry fans considered earth-shattering at the time: the fact that you run into so many Gettysburg fighters in Special Operations 1. (Yes, I remember people treating this like it was the end of the world on Compuserv...)

Freedom Flight was written before the bible (and before SO1), though, so we can't pin on this case. It was also written by Wing Commander's "showrunner" at the time, Ellen Guon, and so probably didn't need material that would have been compiled for licensed writers who were unwilling to play the actual game. :) It's easy to assume she meant the Austin to be a Waterloo-class ship and didn't know the proper term... until you remember that Freedom Flight actually has a (stated) Waterloo in it: the TCS Leningrad. My best guess is that Special Operations 1 was just a story pitch along the lines of "Gettysburg is a Confed carrier goes rogue" when Freedom Flight was finished and it's supposed to reference that.

- The Gettysburg class is known to exist, but completely unknown as a ship. We know it's a cruiser, and that the TCS Austin, used by Tolwyn as his flagship, is one of them. Finally, in one WC1 mission, we do indeed see an Exeter standing in for the TCS Austin, though it jumps away before we can get close enough to have a look. I don't think we know anything beyond that. The WCPedia lists its fighter compliment as 16 ships, but I cannot recall any source that states this.

The third important "fact about the Austin which must apply to whatever the Gettysburg-class" comes from Super Wing Commander, which is Jazz's quote: "Getting used to life aboard the Tiger's Claw has been easy. It's a smaller ship than the Austin. You know, a man could get used to this. " Now that's incredibly vague and is a fact that, let's be honest, no one but me actually saw in a game... but hearing it in similar discussions activated Psych's dumb macho army guy attitude and he decided that what "Gettysburg cruiser' meant was somehow Gettysburg BATTLECRUISER and that's how it entered that portion of the fandom (for his goofy 'Fleet Tactics' real-military-vomit-on-WC site first.) The 16-fighter bit comes from the claim that the Austin has a single fighter squadron. The exact number probably isn't a fair assumption, but it'd be around there (10-20.) And I seem to recall that you can SEE the Exeter but not target it in the mission...
 
Something I read in Fleet Action yesterday:
modern Kilrathi heavy cruisers carry 30 fighters. Page 206.
So this might be the number for the Fralthi2 for example.
 
Starting up work on capital ships this morning.

Here's an issue I think I can try to get out of the way real quick: which ships don't have stated lengths anywhere? The ones I know about are the Belleau Wood, Jakhari, Paradigm, Caernaven, Behemoth, Durango, Pelican, Murphy, Hades, and pretty much everything from Privateer 2. Any others anybody knows about?

Do any of these have lengths listed in non-canonical sources? I know that SWCU lists the Paradigm at 350 m; had a lot of discussion on that one lately.
 
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